14 December 2020 Aston Luff, solicitor, Hodge Jones & Allen, London.
Why is he in the news? The firm represented the family
of Tommy Nicol, an IPP [Imprisonment for Public Protection] prisoner at HMP The
Mount, who died in 2015. The family began a landmark claim alleging that the
operation of the IPP sentence caused Tommy’s death, and the
Administration of it constituted a breach of his right to
life under the Human Rights Act. The Ministry of Justice has settled the claim.
Thoughts on the case:
‘Despite the obvious injustices they cause, existing IPP
sentences have proven Tommy’s case, he was stuck in his IPP
sentence, not for lack of effort or unwillingness to fulfil the requirements
for his release.
After repeated attempts to access the required rehabilitative
courses, he conducted a hunger strike as a last resort. However, symptomatic of
the IPP bureaucratic nightmare, this resulted in disciplinary hearings which
denied him access to the very courses he was hoping to be accepted on.
Like so many on IPP sentences, Tommy was stuck in a
vicious cycle of bureaucracy and deteriorating mental health, caused by the
sentence itself. Ultimately, he lost hope. Paying out damages does not
guarantee that the government will get to grips with the human suffering caused
by IPP sentences, so we hope that this settlement is a springboard for future
change.
The family have launched Ungripp, a campaign which sets out
the changes that can be made to end the injustice.’
A prison service spokesperson said: ‘Our sympathies
remain with the family and friends of Mr Nicol.
Dealing with the media: ‘Even in the midst of their
grief, Tommy’s family have always wanted to keep in mind the bigger picture,
preventing others suffering as a result of the IPP sentence. Since the loss of
her brother, Donna has been incredible. She has campaigned in the media, met
with government ministers and supported families, to ensure that the stories of
Tommy and other IPP prisoners are not forgotten as statistics. It was an
important part of my role to support them in engaging with the media to help
shine a spotlight on the injustice of the IPP regime.’
Why become a lawyer? ‘I previously worked at XLP, a brilliant youth work charity. Sadly, some of the young people and families we worked with were involved in court cases that left them feeling confused and helpless. I switched careers with the hope of supporting people amid tough times.’
UK
government pays out to family of IPP prisoner who killed themself
"His family had begun a landmark claim in the high court, alleging the operation and administration of the IPP sentence constituted a breach of Nicol’s right to life under the Human Rights Act 1998, and led to his death. His time in prison was characterised by repeated setbacks with access to mental health care and rehabilitative courses that were crucial for him to progress his sentence and secure his release.The issues continue. n evidence seen by the Guardian, which would have been put to the high court, the consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr Dinesh Maganty said Nicol and many other IPP prisoners were caught in a vicious cycle where, in order to be released, they had to complete programmes that were not available in sufficient numbers. Together with hopelessness, led to his suicide.”
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/nov/30/uk-government-pays-out-to-family-of-ipp-prisoner-who-killed-himself-tommy-nicol?
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Do you have a a question regarding the IPP sentence? Solicitor hope that this settlement is a springboard for future change. is kindly hosting a free legal Q&A session for people serving the IPP Sentence
additionally Family and advocates supporting those with a IPP sentence .
Wednesday 13th January 4pm-5pm. Read more and sign up here: LOCATION: Zoom - link to be sent following sign up , Dean Kingham who is an experienced solicitor from Swain and Co. He will talk about the current situation regarding the IPP sentence and answer any questions you may have.
Q & A Online Event: IPP Parole Hearings (google.com)
.................................................................................................................
The parole board call for more applications.
Three IPP have had there life sentence lifted and almost 200 are thought to eligible at present. Public appeal for former IPP prisoners to come forward and apply to have their licence terminated. inside time,org
Petition 35,581 of 40,000 signatures
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/free-the-remaining-ipp-prisoners
Thank you for supporting this and signing this petition. lets get this signed by the masses. Prisoners,
Family, Friends, Advocates, Media, and Supporters not forgetting staff working
for the Prisons ….
Hello, IPP Campaign group
I am an IPP who has been released over 5 years with no issues etc since being released.
However, probation refuse to support me when it comes to my suspension of supervision.
Do you have any contact details of legal firms that have actually successfully challenged probation and their client is no longer under supervision?
I have spoken to many solicitors and none of them know much about IPP and none of them have successfully challenged probation.
They say they can help etc and it will cost x amount. However, all they want is money and have no real interest at heart,which is why I want a proven professional to help me.
Thanks for your time and i appreciate anything you can do to help.
Kind regards
Charles
(Name change for privacy )
Reply
Dear Charles
Before we give you any advice it is important for me to clarify that although we have a degree of legal knowledge, we are not solicitors and our opinions are just ours.
We take great care in trying to ensure we give correct information but we cannot guarantee that we get everything right.
I am sorry to hear of your circumstances and I am afraid I am unable to bring you the news that I am sure you would welcome.
The decision as to whether your supervision element of your licence can be cancelled (suspended) after 4 years is one for the LRRS (Lifer Review and Recall Section) and your probation officer. It is not a decision that you can influence with legal counsel sadly, it is one purely for those relevant departments. One possible avenue would be to ask for a formal reply on the matter and then to seek legal counsel for a judicial review concerning the issue but I wouldn’t hold your breath. I should also clarify that legally all that is required is for cancellation to be considered. The prison instruction 4700 gives a clear explanation of the process in chapter 13.9 Variation, Cancellation and Re-Imposition of Licence conditions (page 6-7) in the attached 31 page document titled PSO_4700.
There are a few exceptions where an individual does not qualify which are covered on page 7, these relate to the type of index offence.
I obviously do not know how much you already know regarding this area. The fact is that even if you were successful in getting the supervision element cancelled, it can be reactivated at any time if something happened. For example, if you received a caution or a complaint was made or if relevant intelligence came to light. Once reactivated you could be recalled or put back under supervision.
You mention that you have had five years under licence with no issues, which is really good news. If you are not already aware you are entitled under section 31A of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 to apply for consideration to be given to terminating your IPP licence 10 years after your initial release.
So be sure to keep the date of your very first release from prison under the IPP sentence clear in your mind. There has been a revision to chapter 13 of the PSO4700 during September this year clarifying that the ten year countdown starts from the date of initial release, so on the date of that anniversary be sure to send a formal application direct to the Parole Board requesting that under the said mention rule they consider terminating your licence.
If you are unsuccessful then reapply every year thereafter. I have attached the relevant revision (Annex A) for clarification. I personally recommend that people send the requests to the parole board because it is your right to do so and it removes any potential hostility between you and your probation officer. The parole board will direct her/him to supply the relevant dossier and assessments when they commence your request. So there is no need to go through your probation officer at all to instigate the process and unlike the request to cancel the supervising aspect, if you are successful in this request the licence is terminated permanently and cannot be reactivated.
In relation to legal counsel, it is not necessary in this area unless you are being denied your right under section 31A to apply for consideration to be given to terminating your licence. Legal representation will have little effect on the parole board’s decision however if after a few attempts you are not able to secure the termination then it would be prudent to seek legal counsel. You would then be in a position to give the previous decisions and reasoning to the solicitor who could then make an informed assessment as to how to proceed.
Stephenson Solicitors had a dedicated team to handle issues regarding IPPs, I also know a very good barrister called Dean Kingham who works for Swain and Co Solicitors. We always recommend good legal counsel where it is appropriate, especially when seeking release representation. If you have not at any point challenged your IPP sentence then this would be a worthwhile area to look into because changes were made during the early years of the IPP sentence’s use to the qualifying remit. Unless your sentence has been properly assessed by an IPP specialist solicitor like Dean Kingham then you may have been incorrectly issued the sentence by the sentencing judge in the first place. A specialist solicitor could identify whether this is the likely case and if successfully challenged you could have that sentence obliterated. This would be a far more worthwhile area to spend money on if you are in a position to do so.
I hope we have been able to help in some way.
Best regards
IPP Campaign group.
Dec 10, 2021
I am a Clinical Psychologist working with a man who is currently wishing to appeal his IPP. We would really benefit from some guidance and support with this better and thinking through what his options might be. Would this be something you are able to help with?
Many thanks in advance
Dr, Mark Wakes
Project Lead
Project Future
(Name changed for privacy )
Reply
Dear Mark ,
Thank you for contacting us and yes I can give you some direction in this matter.
It is most important that he gets in touch with a competent specialist solicitor who has experience in handling the IPP sentence. If he did not appeal his sentence after it was issued there is a possibility that after proper reassessment he may be able to have the sentenced challenged.
There were changes made to the qualifying remit a few years after the sentence came into use because it quickly became evident it was being woefully over used.
One solicitor known to a member of the group is Dean Kingham, there are of course others. I have put a link to his contact page below and a few other relevant solicitors. Obviously it is wise to approach a number of specialist solicitors so tell him to have a good look through the Inside Time newspaper.
The first thing to do is probably the most difficult, that is for him to compile as much information about his conviction as he can but to put the information down as simplistically as possible, like a list of bulletin points. You do not want to overwhelm the solicitors when you approach them initially but you want to provide quick and easy points to help them evaluate and respond reasonably quickly, they will ask for additional information as and when they need it.
.Vital information they will need:-
Name, prison number, location
Date of conviction, Court and ideally trial and sentencing judge
Type of conviction
Sentence minimum term
Whether the conviction was challenged
Did the sentence get challenged?
Any successful parole’s containing dates of release and recall
Date of last parole
In a short paragraph the reason given for his last parole refusal
Once he has done that and written out a good number of copies he is then ready to start sending them out to the relevant solicitors.
Solicitors will take time to reply, he should however follow up each one with a polite chase letter containing a copy (if possible) of the original letter after 30 days if he receives no reply. Be sure that he adds a degree of desperation in the chase letter and tells the solicitor how this sentence is affecting his mental health.
I would also advice not informing them at this early stage whether he will need legal aid, this may switch some solicitors off straight away because of the complexities of handling cases under this provision. They may ask this question in their reply which is fine but hopefully they will have given him an idea as to whether they are in a position to offer the specialist assistance he would need and if they do not deal with Legal Aid cases then he should always ask them for assistance in locating a suitable barrister that will.
I hope this helps.
Best regards
IPP Campaign group.
Links below to relevant solicitors
https://www.swainandco.com/team-view/dean-kingham/
https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/srvcriminal/appeal_solicitors/ipp_sentences/
https://forrestwilliamssolicitors.com/news/imprisonment-public-protection-ipp-solicitors/
https://www.hinesolicitors.com/services/prison-solicitor/ipp-prisoners/
https://www.tuckerssolicitors.com/prison-law/ipp-prisoners/
Dear IPP Campaign group,
Thank you for this information, this is incredibly helpful. Thankfully we had started compiling most of the information you suggested and reached out to a couple of solicitors, with no luck so far. Your additional list of contacts is very helpful. Can I ask, from your experience are there solicitors/barristers who do consider legal aid for these matters? So far that has been the main challenge for this client.
Many thanks again
Mark Wakes
(Name changed for privacy )
Reply pending
And if anyone would like to write a list could be compiled in Thank you in advance.
Email
Dec1st, 2021
Hi Katherine
My son is in his 12 year of an IPP currently at..........., withheld). he will be there for approx 2 more years before even being considered for open prison he getting old, my sister raised my awareness of the the blog and petition and thank you for the good work you are doing my mother is 97 now and Jason phones her everyday as the likely hood is he will never see her again this is so wrong x
IPP Prisoners face cycle of release and recall.
Inside
Time Reports11th
December 2020
A growing number of people with Imprisonment for Public
Protection (IPP) sentences are stuck in a cycle of being released and recalled,
being released and recalled ove and over ,a report has warned.
Of more than 8,000 people who were handed the indefinite sentences
before they were abolished in 2012, there were 1,895 still in prison awaiting
their first release as of September. However, this was almost matched by the
1,357 who were back in prison having been released and subsequently recalled.
Researchers from the Prison Reform Trust said the number on
recall had almost tripled in five years and was likely to carry on rising due
to difficulties faced by people after their release.
The findings, based on interviews with recalled IPP
prisoners, probation officers and Parole Board members, pointed to problems
including:
Licence conditions which prevent working or rebuilding family
ties;
Lack of support from probation officers;
Recall for petty reasons when no further offence has been
committed.
Once back in custody, IPP-sentenced prisoners faced
difficulties in securing their re-release including not knowing what was
required of them.
The report found that many people with IPP sentences suffered
mental ill health due to their difficulty in coping with indefinite incarceration,
yet felt unable to tell authorities about their difficulties because mental ill
health could be cited by probation officers as a risk factor to justify a
decision to recall.
One IPP-sentenced person is quoted in the report saying: “So
long as I’m under IPP I have no life, no freedom, no future. I fear IPP will
force me to commit suicide. I have lost all trust and hope in this justice
system… Each day I feel more and more fear and dismay and I am starting to
dislike life. . . . I have to suffer in prison in silence. Accept it or
suicide. That’s my only options left.”
The report’s title – No Life, No Freedom, No Future – is
taken from the quote.
The authors call on the Government to make the abolition of
IPP sentences retrospective, with everyone still on one being resentenced. They
also say IPP licences should be reviewed, and removed if they no longer needed,
five years after a person is first released, rather than 10 years as under the
present rules.
In a foreword to the report, Lord Brown of Eaton-Under-Heywood,
a Justice of the Supreme Court from 2009 to 2012, states: “I have no hesitation
in describing the continuing aftermath of the ill-starred IPP sentencing regime
as the greatest single stain on our criminal justice system. As, moreover, this
report demonstrates, it grows ever-wider.”
He says of the IPP prisoners still in custody: “Whether
detained under their original sentences or recalled … they all now (together
with their families) exist in a Kafkaesque world of uncertainty, despair and
hopelessness, indefinitely detained unless and until they are able to satisfy
the inevitably difficult test of persuading the Parole Board that they can
safely be (re)released.”
The Prison and Probation Ombudsman (PPO) has
investigated said 56 self-inflicted deaths of prisoners serving the
same sentence in different prisons IPP sentences. What
does that tell you?
…………………………………………………………………………
Inside times, some cases involving IPP prisoners.
The following case studies highlight examples of these cases.
Case Study A
Mr A, who was 35, received an IPP sentence for robbery with a
tariff of two years and nine months. After five years in custody he was
released, but three years later he returned to prison when he breached the
terms of his licence.
During the three years after his return to prison, he
repeatedly told staff he could not cope with his sentence and sought help from
healthcare for anxiety. He was often challenging to manage.
Three weeks before he died, Mr A was moved to the segregation
unit after he and two other prisoners barricaded themselves in a cell. That
evening, Mr A made cuts to his wrist and staff began ACCT procedures. He was
assessed by the mental health team, GPs and a psychiatrist. He was offered
medication for anxiety and depression but often refused to take it because he
said it made him feel worse.
Mr A said his IPP sentence was “killing him” and that he was
concerned at plans to recategorise him from category C to B, which he feared
would mean a move to a prison further from his family. He repeatedly told staff
that he would kill himself after his next visit from his family.
Mr A’s mother visited him a week later. On the same day, he
was told he was being recategorised to B. At an ACCT review that afternoon,
staff considered that Mr A’s risk of suicide and self-harm had increased but
they did not increase the frequency with which he was checked (which remained
at once an hour). In the early hours of the next morning, an officer found Mr A
hanged in his cell.
Case Study B
Mr B entered custody as a teenager on a short minimum tariff.
When he complained to the PPO, he had been in prison for over 10 years. He had
recently been recategorised from C to B and transferred to a new prison. He
believed these decisions were unfairly impeding his progress.
Mr B believed that returning to his previous prison was
important for his release because he had been working well with his therapist
and had access to an onsite therapeutic community, a facility his new prison
lacked.
Mr B wrote to us about the decision to recategorise and
transfer him. Our investigation found that while Mr B had worked hard to reduce
his risk of serious harm, we also found evidence of poor behaviour and control
issues, and did not uphold this part of his complaint. Further, we agreed that
Mr B’s behaviour presented a challenge to the prison and likely had an impact
on other prisoners.
We were concerned about the case more broadly, however. While
we found that efforts had been made to secure a progressive transfer for Mr B,
he was essentially still in prison due to his poor behaviour. We felt that a
failure of provision (specifically – the inability to locate Mr B with a
therapeutic community and the inability to address his decline in behaviour)
were preventing Mr B from making progress. We called for a review of the case
and that this review should assess Mr B’s sentence plan and provide further
support for progression.
Case Study C
Mr C received an IPP sentence with a tariff of three years.
After seven years in custody, the Parole Board recommended a transfer to open
conditions to prepare for release. He was recategorized to D and transferred,
and was looking forward to proving himself and working towards his release.
Later that year, he was approved to begin community work, made eight unescorted
visits in the community and completed offending behaviour programmes.
Two days before Mr C’s death, he was accused of assaulting a
prisoner and was moved to the segregation unit during the investigation. While
there, Mr C was safety screened and assessed, at which point he said he was
fine and made no complaints. The following morning, a duty manager visited Mr C
and recorded that he seemed in good spirits. That afternoon an officer
delivered a letter confirming Mr C was being transferred. It read: ‘It is
alleged you assaulted another offender. You are to be moved to closed
conditions pending police investigation’. That officer delivering the letter
recorded that he took the news well.
Mr C was assessed by staff on arrival in his new prison. They
were told he had not self-harmed, did not have a history of depression or
thoughts of suicide, and concluded that he was not at risk of suicide. At
reception, however, he called his father and said: ‘All right man, it’s coming
back here and all that going through the same procedure again, feel like proper
locked up again not even getting up’.
That night Mr C was not placed on special monitoring measures
as he was found to not be at risk. At morning roll check, he was found hanging
with jogging bottoms tied around his neck. Arriving paramedics assessed that he
had been dead for some time.
Our investigation found several issues with the management of
Mr C’s risk of suicide. During the two days he spent in segregation, he was assessed
as not being at risk of suicide. We did not find staff had considered that Mr
C’s new circumstances had increased his risk as an IPP prisoner. We also found
that on arrival at closed conditions, again staff concluded that Mr C was not
at risk of suicide. There was no evidence that staff had considered that Mr C’s
transfer might have added considerable time to his sentence.
We recommended that prisons should ensure that all the known
risk factors for newly arriving prisoners are fully considered and documented
when determining an individual’s risk of suicide and self-harm.
As at September 2019, 2,059 prisoners continue to serve an
IPP sentence in custody. We are aware of initiatives in HMPPS to identify, and
prioritise, those cases where people are over tariff and not progressing
towards release. These include progression units in some prisons and a review
of all cases. We will continue to record, and share, the learning from our
investigations as it relates to the IPP sentence and its impact on those
serving it.
Seeking a reprieve possible?
Would it be possible to get a reprieve from Queen’s to temporarily prevent the IPP setence from continuing for good.
To have a reprieve would give IPP Prisoners relief from further Mental Harm (especially after being relieved of continued distress)
Has been proved that the Administration of the IPP prisoners sentence caused inmates suicide. The IPP Sentence no longer exists though people still serve the sentence and continue to go round in circles.
IPP sentence has a shocking Death toll. These MOJ numbers are said to be inaccurate. The total deaths are 215, with 72 of those by suicide.
Moj figures of IPP Prisoners Deaths
2005:0 2006:2
200:7
2008:9 2009:7
210:12
2011:14 2012:10 2013:12
2014:19 2015:16 2016:11
2017:26 2018:22 2019: 1?
Total Deaths 167
FOI IPP suicides from the MoJ
205:0 2006:2
2007:4
2008:4 2009:3
2010:3
Total Deaths:
56 Total 287
Mental hospitals: data not known.
A prisoner with severe mental illness has won an appeal against an indefinite jail sentence after a court heard new psychiatric evidence.
Keith Nelson was raped as a child age 12 and abused in children's' homes.The court heard he tried to kill himself a year later, and spent many years sleeping rough and living in cars.Nelson's mum died in a house fire when he was 15.
However nine years later Nelson remains in Langdon Medium Secure Hospital.
His legal team took his case to the Court of Appeal where they argued far more is known about his mental health than at the time of sentence.
High Court judge Lord Justice Dingemans
The court heard from Dr David Somekh, a consultant forensic psychiatrist, who said in his opinion Nelson's offending and risk to the public was "entirely attributable" to his mental health disorder.
Dr Somekh, alongside fellow psychiatrists Dr Jonathan Garabette and Dr Mary Linton, agreed that Nelson was best dealt with in the hospital system where he had been a model patient and was responding well to treatment.
However IPP sentences are no longer used by judges over fears that prisoners were left languishing behind bars for years, and sometimes decades, after the minimum recommended term set in court due to poor administration.
Lord Dingeman's agreed with the evidence of the experts, concluding in his judgment: "The first concern is that once the appellant gets to a position to be considered for release from hospital he will be sent to prison.
"Such an environment is likely to lead to a relapse of his delusional disorder because he will not take his anti-psychotic medicine, meaning that he will be returned to hospital, before being getting better and being returned again to prison.
"This means that he will "yo-yo" between hospital and prison for the foreseeable for 99 years.
"The second concern is that when finally released from prison the appellant will not be supervised by a team of mental health experts reporting to the hospital and Secretary of State for Justice but instead by a probation officer!!!
Cruel and unseal punishment, life in the system playing Russian roulette with a IPP prisoner life.
"A probation officer will not be trained to spot the subtle signs of mental health deterioration, and if they are identified the probation officer will not have the powers to intervene to arrest any such deterioration.
"This is a matter of particular importance because it is now apparent that the
appellant will always suffer from some form of mental disorder, but with treatment and effective management and supervision he should progress to live as risk free as is reasonably achievable in society."
The hybrid order was quashed and a new Hospital Order was imposed, meaning that when medical experts deem it safe Nelson can be released under supervision.
Nick Hardwick's Tweet 08 01 2021
Epidemic spreading in prisons. Now in total lockdown. Staff shortages reducing regime further. Not sustainable for a protracted period. Can only be managed if population low enough to allow some regime. Urgent need now for EFFECTIVE early release scheme for low
MARK LEECH FRSA - PrisonOracle.com's Tweet
On 1st January remember how senior @HMPPS staff named as liars and forgers in a devastating 2019 court judgment have kept their jobs, been promoted and bestowed with 'Honours' by an #HonoursList unfit for purpose.
Dean kingham's Tweet
This week I spoke at Westminster Legal Policy Forum about reforming the Probation Service. I gave some examples of how poor some Probation Officers can be at Parole, but this takes some beating. Absolutely appalling!
Nov 24 to Dec15
*Does anyone know anyone that has been successful after applying for this 10year or even the 4 year parole suspended! Because I haven’t. My son is an iPP. On his second recall since release in 2016! He know hundreds of ipp and don’t know anyone with success of these?
* It makes me so angry that instead of facing this and changing things they instead choose to leave people to have a life filled with uncertainty and pain. I honestly do not know how these people sleep at night.
*This solicitor has been supposedly representing my partner since August. We’ve had to change solicitors as haven’t been able to get hold of her since 5th December. He received his paper work today and she has done NOTHING! So now my partner is still in prison on recall (12 week custodial sentence) . Could have been out months ago! She hasn’t forwarded any letters we have written to the parole board, she hasn’t put in the appeal that she was meant to do can’t believe someone would do this. My kids are without their Dad for longer than should be and now probably for another few months as he has NO representations
* I pray
that my brother is released soon too its been 13 years for a 4 and a half
year tariff
*One of the main recommendations following the publication of the report on the effect of the IPP sentence on families was the need for greater communication between prisons and families.
Given that fact, I would be really interested to find out how many prisons are going in the opposite direction.
In particular, i would be very grateful if you could let me know which prisons prevent you from speaking directly to the chaplaincy unless there is a serious illness or a death in the family. I'm doing some research and may take this further.
Thanks for your help!
*I find most category B prisons are really hard to communicate with,and aren’t very helpful.
*I just got released from 12 and half years on a 2 and half year IPP I got when I was 19. I should of been out when I was 21 but I’m 32 next month. I want say a big thanks to Dean Kingham and Yasmin Karabasic atbSwain and Co who know the IPP inside and out and you wouldn’t want any others representing you. you can’t beat the man who never gives up, never give up and keep going. Again, thanks to all who got me through!
https://insidetime.org/three-officers-convicted-over-assault-on-prisoner/
Lawyer in the news: Aston Luff, Hodge Jones & Allen | Profile | Law Gazette
IPP prisoners face cycle of release and recall – insidetime & insideinformation
Investigating cases involving IPP prisoners | Prisons & Probation Ombudsman (ppo.gov.uk)
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/nov/30/uk-government-pays-out-to-family-of-ipp-prisoner-who-killed-himself-tommy-nicol?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR0RbzvBD9OX08fTyFRrEd7dZd5iUhE94EMxz45u4Eae_0tJu55j6d2FuDQ
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